Original clay sculpture of Governor Steunenberg's statue

One of the treasures I found while browsing the Internet a few years ago are the photographs below of the original clay model sculpture done by Gilbert Riswold for the Frank Steunenberg's statue that sits in front of the Idaho Capitol building in Boise. We have of course talked about and visited Governor Steunenberg's statue before, but these are the first photos I have seen of the original at the California Bronze Foundry in Los Angeles where the casting was done by Nelli Guido. Having done some studying of the work of a sculptor, and visited a foundry, I could argue that the skills required in the casting and finishing process are probably as equally important, if not more so, than those of the 
original artist. 

USC Digital Library

This biography of Guido Nelli from the Archives of AskART: Born in Rome, Italy on June 6, 1888. Nelli studied in his native city at Institute di Belle Arti and learned the Cellini method of casting from his father, Francisco. For 15 years he maintained a foundry in Petrograd, Russia where he cast works for the Imperial Palace. Due to the revolution he fled Russia in 1919 and, shortly thereafter, immigrated to New York. After arriving in Los Angeles in 1927, he established the California Bronze Foundry and began casting some of the more important bronze works across the U.S. His work also includes more than 100 copies of Charles M. Russell's work. In his leisure he painted and sculpted until his death in Los Angeles on Nov. 8, 1952. In: Hall of Fame, Washington, DC (Junípero Serra and Starr King); Kansas City (Pioneer Group); Santa Anita Race Track (Seabiscuit ); Golden Gate Bridge (Joseph Strauss).Source:
Edan Hughes, "Artists in California, 1786-1940"
Argus, Dec. 1927, p. 11; California Arts and Architecture list, 1932; Who's Who in California 1942; Los Angeles Times, 11-28-1926 & 11-11-1952 (obituary).



These photographs come from the USC Library and can be viewed online at this USC Digital Library link. Type Steunenberg into the search box. I have contacted the library as would like to purchase higher resolution scans or photographic copies to frame for the wall.

I assume the original sculpture statue is long gone and was destroyed once the bronze casting was poured and completed. The California Bronze Foundry is gone too as far as I know. About this time (1927/1928), the same foundry was casting the first Academy Awards, the "Oscar", then made of bronze and plated with 24-karat gold.



















I don't see any Oscars sitting around the foundry in the pictures of the governor's statue. The governor was noted for his informality and not wearing a necktie. Oscar is noted for not wearing anything.

Oscar and Frank

Big Bill Haywood in Silver City, Idaho

As a miner in Silver City, Idaho, Haywood began in earnest his life as an organizer and as a founding member of the Silver City local of the Western Federation of Miner's (WFM). Click on the above link (Idaho State Historical Society Digital Collections) where we see him in his classic pose, head turned to the right, shielding his bad eye from the camera. He right eye was blinded in an accident at the age of nine.

Below we have an overall view of Silver City circa 1900.

Postcard view of Silver City from the collection of John T. Richards

From Big Trouble, regarding Operative 53, who was working undercover for the Thiel Detective Agency:
"In his first report, filed January 13, Operative 53 said that R.J. Hanlon, financial secretary of the Sliver City Miner's Union, complained that Haywood and Charles H. Moyer, the president of the WFM, were 'trying very hard to get the Silver City Union mixed up in the {Steunenberg} affair.' Hanlon said two union officials had telegraphed him the day before to hire John Nugent, a Silver City lawyer and old friend of Haywood's, to defend Harry Orchard. An ex-miner who'd turned to the law after he was seriously injured in a mining accident, Nugent was serving as prosecutor of Owyhee County, where union sympathizers were in the saddle, but Nugent--perhaps seeing a conflict of interest--declined to take the Orchard case. Hanlon and other union members talked of a split between Idaho's 'hotheaded' unionists to the north and more conservative Silver City miners, who were reluctant to become embroiled in 'this mess.'

The Owyhee Nuggett, a Silver City newspaper friendly to the union, reported that the Steunenberg assassination was 'a serious affair in which {the miners} will do well to play 'hands off.' Many Silver City miners, the paper said, remembered Haywood from his days there and regarded him as 'very impetuous' but an honest man in his personal dealings, industrious, and wonderfully devoted to {his} wife.'

As snow blanketed the mining camp, the operative found it 'a hard matter' to get union men to talk about the case. 'When some of them get a little intoxicated,' he reported, however, 'they begin to talk a little.' Over several weeks, he spent more than fifty dollars buying drinks for cold, thirsty miners. Eventually, several told him that the WFM had recently voted to 'clean up' the union's enemies, among them Steunenberg, and that four or five men had been appointed to get those 'damn sons of bitches,' which they'd do if it took a hundred years."

--Big Trouble by J. Anthony Lukas

More ISHS Digital Collections
Haywood related documents

Old Harry Orchard

Silver City/Delamar area map

Be sure to browse all the photographs and documents in the Idaho State Historical Society (ISHS) Digital Collections.

Related Blog post:
Saturday, January 19, 2008
What the Heck is an Emu-Z-Um Anyway? Silver City/Delamar, Idaho, Big Bill Haywood & "Are They Going to Hang My Papa."

Interurban Car in Caldwell, Idaho

I have never been able to resist an Idaho Interurban car and picked up this rather scarce postcard image taken in Caldwell, ID. Behind the back of the car you get a peek of the Caldwell Banking & Trust Company and Steunenberg block. To the immediate right is the Saratoga Hotel, anchoring the focal point of the town at that time...the intersection at 7th and Main Streets.

You have seen this image in history books or websites about the area, and I have a reproduction (ugg!) but finally found the real deal. Bidding was a bit lively for this one so my insincere apology to anyone out there that I sniped in the last few seconds. I have other interurban images from Caldwell and Boise and most of them can be seen elsewhere on the blog or sprinkled about in the links below. Click on the above image to get a nice enlarged view.

Caldwell, Idaho Street View Early 1900's Click under this photograph where it says "original" and then click it again to enlarge even more. Is that the governor hanging out the door waving?

Caldwell-Boise Interurban under construction. There are some great links included here to informative outside websites about the Treasure Valley Interurban often known as "the loop."

Boise Valley Electric Railroads

Interurban Cars Running Through Main Street of Caldwell

Photo and narrative below from University Of Idaho Library Special Collections and Archives
Early-day Boise's transportation problems were to be solved by extending a branch line to Nampa to meet the transcontinental main line in 1887 after a five-year delay. By 1891, electric trolleys were seen as necessary and added to the mix. By 1902, both Nampa and Caldwell attempted to displace Boise as the region's economic center.
To capitalize on this effort, businessman Walter E. Pierce of Boise incorporated the Boise and Interurban Railway to connect the commuters of the three towns. In this souvenir promotional publication (1907) he proclaimed, "Under the general plan of the company every point offering paying business or capable of being developed to the profitable stage will be reached and the Boise and payette Valleys will be made tributary to Boise, as the very heart of the city can be reached in a short time, which will permit [the] business man and employees living anywhere along the line to perform their daily duties in the city."
The tracks of the interurban railways throughout the country and particularly in the West were ripped up and the cars shipped overseas as riders flocked to the freedom of automobile and bus manufacturers conspired to destroy the rail links. In the late 1990's, light interurban rail service is returning to the Boise Valley in the hopes of forestalling the paving of more real estate in the fast growing region.
Purchase of Boise & Interurban Railway Co. Ltd.: Souvenir ed., showing scenery along the route of the Boise and Interurban Railway, Boise and Caldwell (1907) was made possible by funds provide by the John Calhoun Smith Memorial Fund.

Caption: Boise & Interurban Railway car, colored lithograph pasted to the cover. Boise & Interurban Railway Co. Ltd.: Souvenir ed., showing scenery along the route of the Boise and Interurban Railway, Boise and Caldwell. (1907). Day-Northwest Collection, Special Collections and Archives, University of Idaho Library.

No Neckties Allowed #3 - the Brunelle/Haney family, Black Bear Idaho & a Harry Orchard connection

Hopefully I can get a post on here without too much trouble this morning. Some malware has been hijacking and redirecting to other links and not letting me get access during the past couple of weeks. It is still hanging around but my techie (son Joe) has weeded out some of it. Usually we clean those out without too much trouble but this one has been particularly troublesome.

A couple weeks ago I was contacted by an Andy Brunelle regarding an old photograph he had spotted on my blog. I had purchased it quite some time ago because I liked it. There was no particular Steunenberg connection other than it was circa 1906 and up in the mining region of Northern Idaho. The photo has been dwelling down in the depths of this blog in what is left of a non-archived picture section. I have been trying to pull those items up and incorporate them into main blog posts where appropriate and the time has finally arrived for this one.

From the writing on the back, it appeared to be a photograph taken near Black Bear, Idaho. It turns out that the woman on the far right with her dog is Margariete Haney, Andy's grandmother and the family has one of these same photographs. I also later connected up with Andy's brother, Michael, and his "Brunelle Nation" blog site on which the links directly below are located. The other woman and child are unidentified and not known to the family. If you know any more about this photograph, please email me. I did just notice that Margariete is the spelling on the back of the photograph but Marguerite is used on the Brunelle website. Andy and Michael no doubt have it correct. I seem to be having a heck of time spelling it right too.
The Brunelle's/Haney's have some interesting history in the Black Bear area, having run a boarding house in those early years. Not surprisingly, considering where the family lived, there were miners in the family too. However, I was surprised by a connection that led to Harry Orchard. See "Brunelle and the Assassin" and other links below.

The 1910 Fires and the Brunelle Story

Marguerite Haney

Brunelle and the Assassin

Some other new links of interest for this week:
Idaho Resolutions regarding the death of Frank Steunenberg

The Story of Governor Steunenberg's Murder, Current Opinion June 1907

Trust Companies of Idaho 1904 - Principals & assets of the Caldwell Bank & Trust (click again on the page that comes up to view the full length first column)

Assassination of Ex-Governor Steunenberg, History Of Idaho

The Case of "Big Bill" Haywood 1907

Woman Suffrage in Idaho by Frank Steunenberg (you may have seen this before on the blog but worth another look). Here is a link showing the original version I acquired of the Harper's Bazar in which the article appeared.

Previous "No Neckties Allowed"
No Neckties Allowed #1 - a Frank Steunenberg trademark, reader comments & links of interest

No Neckties Allowed #2 - Steunenberg pin back, Big Trouble...again, & a readers comments

No Neckties Allowed #2 - Steunenberg pinback, Big Trouble...again, and a readers comments

This is my second installment of "No Neckties Allowed." What that means is an informal entry of recent happenings, new links, miscellaneous stuff and whatever tickles my fancy. I think I will identify the entries by using the above photograph of the small Whitehead & Hoag pinback button that you may have seen elsewhere on this blog. It is patent dated July 17, 1894, April 14, 1896 and July 21, 1896 on the back. I only have this one and would sure like to find more....so be on the look out.

The pinback was part of a collection put out by Whitehead & Hoag of all the States Governors & Governors-Elect at the time. Clink on the right photo to enlarge the circa 1896 catalog page and of course look for Idaho. I don't own this catalog but see it kicking around online for around $350 - $400. The photo comes from Hake's Americana & Collectibles where it doesn't look like they got any bids with a starting price of $400. As you can see, the pinbacks sold for 5 cents a piece. Find a Steunenberg pinback and I will buy it off you for double or triple the MSRP....no questions asked.

I started reading Big Trouble (BT) by J. Anthony Lukas again this past week. This may be my third or so read through from cover to cover. Of course, BT serves as a primary research instrument because it really is BIG and Lukas really was quite good at documenting and referencing the material and sources. With all my research and quoting, I have probably read it many more times in various segments. I find as I have learned more about these events, pieces of the story spun by Lukas take on new significance and pop off the page where they may have been missed before.

I have a whole box full of BT books but just one old tattered paperback version that is marked up, written on, covered with post it notes and markers, has lists of stuff on the once blank pages and I have to tape it back together now and then when it falls apart into pieces. For those of you not inclined to wade through the complete volume of BT, there is an abridged cassette tape that was produced and sold and can still be found online through used book stores or eBay. It consists of four cassettes with a total of about six hours running time. That is pretty short compared to the whole book. The audio sticks to the main story line with none of the detail and historical digressions that folks either love or hate. I had to learn a little love too on my first read through.

I always thought the audio version would make a good basis for a movie. Assassination: Idaho's Trial of the Century came pretty close to meeting that need although I still think Steven Spielberg and Tom Hanks could do some great things with it...maybe a Saving Governor Steunenberg?

The publisher never produced the BT cassette on CD but I am going to get it transferred over soon and make it available. I won't be selling it for profit or anything and the publisher never plans to put it on CD (at least not until the Spielberg/Hanks movie comes out!) so I probably won't get sued. Although reading the complete book is much more rich in terms of historical detail, if you just haven't been able to stick with it, give the abridged audio version a try. I think you will like it and may find yourself coming back to the book for more.

Miscellany

No Neckties Allowed #1

Idaho's all-time, top ten scoundrels

Law & Order watching over the Capitol

More from Capitolshots Photography

And an email this week from Les Wright. Thank you Les, for permitting me to post your message and for your contributions to the discussion and historical research. You will be hearing more from me.

October 8, 2010

Hello, Mr. Richards.

Let me start by saying that finding your blog has been a real treasure trove for me. I've been studying "Harry Orchard" for something like 25 years, now. It was frustrating, too, believe me, having only his book: "Harry Orchard", as a reference in trying to learn more of the behind-the-scenes story - like who he really was. Harry never revealed that and a lot of information about himself or his family. My own research, pre-Internet, was frustratingly slow and produced very little in the way of satisfactory results.

Years ago, I was given an old red hardcover book simply titled "Harry Orchard". I didn't read it right away, even though it was given "especially for me"... that it was something I needed to read. When I did read it, there was no turning back. I had to find out who this person was and why he did what he did.

Sniffing around old and dank, dusty libraries and archives produced nothing for years. When I got over my prejudice of computers and the Internet, I began to unravel the mystery of Harry Orchard. I was able to find out his real name - Albert Horsley - and even traced his genealogy back to the "Old Country", the same as my ancestors. Horsley was born in roughly the same area as my grandfather, too, though I doubt their families knew one another.

Finding your blog was an accident (I think) in that I was just trying to remember another site's location I had perused from time to time. I see you have been in contact with Horsley's family, as well. My own attempts to find them have been futile, though I have attempted a dialogue with some of Hattie Simpson's family. (She was the woman Horsley mentions in his book with whom he absconded to Nelson BC.) They rather politely told me where I could take myself. Like with your Larry Taylor fellow, there are some folk that don't like having their family history scrutinized, even though it's been several generations that have passed. Personally, I know it's not only his or my family that has some colorful individuals in it's history. I think we all have dirty laundry if we were to go back far enough. At any rate, there won't be any IWW hitmen going after us, now, after all this time.

Anyway, as stated, your blog is very detailed and informative. I've been putting my own little dossier together on Harry Orchard. Like I mentioned to the Simpson's, I have no interest in publishing a book on the subject, it's just for myself and my family. I have no interest, either, in doing anything for the local SDA Church, whom, for the most part, have shown next to zero interest in this story. Funny, too, as this Church has helped shape North American history in a very significant way. I have been in contact with the Caldwell SDA Church, though, their membership being very cordial and helpful to me in my research.

Harry Orchard, for me, was a very familiar fellow and one that I can understand... even empathize with, to a very great degree. He was and is a social pariah, something that represents the side of humanity no one really wants to have deal with or even acknowledge. Harry shows us what even a small, insignificant-looking fellow can do under the right circumstances, with the right influence and provocation. I don't see him as the embodiment of evil, nor as they only perpetrator in this story. He did have an alcoholic and abusive father that effectively drove him out of his home long before he would otherwise have had to leave. He then continued to parasite off of his earnings, showing little regard for honesty in his dealings with his son or the community. It is said that a man learns the most from his father in terms of character. If so, then Lyman Horsley has a lot to answer for in the character-building of his son.

I, too, know what it is like to hit the skids and reach the lowest depths of existence. The blackness that surrounds you, in times like these, seems insurmountable. Death does seem like a viable solution. I can well imagine what Orchard went through while he awaited trial in prison. I know that he must have found peace with God (there truly are no atheists in foxholes) and made a true confession and renouncement of his sins. He could have gotten off easy like the rest of his cohorts, yet, he chose to accept his punishment.

Well, I've bent your ear long enough. Primarily, I just wanted to praise your blog and offer thanks for doing it. I also learned a lot about your great-grandfather in my studies. He was a man's man and a brave one. The world truly didn't deserve such an individual and he certainly didn't deserve to go out like he did. Life doesn't play favorites, however, I believe that God has His hand over Frank Steunenberg. If the world hasn't forgotten him, God surely will not.

Take care, Mr. Richards.

L.A. Wright

Idaho Gem of the Mountains - I.O.O.F Ribbon & Medallion - A.K. Steunenberg, P.G.M.

I recently acquired this I.O.O.F ribbon and medallion. A.K. Steunenberg was an active I.O.O.F member and as you see on this ribbon, a Past Grand Master (P.G.M.) to the Sovereign Grand Lodge. I do not know if A.K. was at this 1906 session of the Sovereign Grand Lodge or not, what with the assassination of his brother, Ex-Governor Frank Steunenberg, having occurred just nine months prior on December 30th, 1905. He was busily involved with representing the family interests during the course of the investigation. Unbeknownst at the time, A.K. was nearing his own death--to come all to soon on March 16, 1907.

From Big Trouble:
"Early in 1907, Operative 21 reported on a bold attempt to infiltrate some of the community's 'respectables' on the defense's behalf. The target was the Independent Order of Odd Fellows, one of Idaho's most active fraternal organizations. Ralph Gilbert, a tender of irrigation ditches in Parma and a 'sympathizer with the prisoners,' had long been an Odd Fellow in Parma. Operative 21 reported that Gilbert had agreed, 'on condition that his name was never brought into the affair,' to make regular reports to the defense on the conversations of Fred E. Fisk, chairman of the Canyon County Board of Commissioners, and other prominent Odd Fellows. If the Parma lodge was replete with local muck-a-mucks, Caldwell's boasted an even showier roster useful to the defense. A. K. Steunenberg held high rank, having served successfully as grand secretary, grand master, and grand representative to the Sovereign Lodge. John, Will, and Pete Steunenberg also belonged, as did their confidant Monte Gwinn, John Rice, Albert F. Isham, and Sheriff Nichols. Moreover, as of January 1907--thanks to A. K.'s efforts--the Caldwell lodge, in its brick building by the railroad tracks, became the headquarters of Idaho's Odd Fellows. If Ralph Gilbert kept his ears open around the lodge bars in Parma and Caldwell, there'd be no end of information he could pass on to Darrow's defense team."
-- Big Trouble by J. Anthony Lukas








--Early Caldwell Through Photographs

Although most of the architectural details have been covered, lost or modified, the following Google street view is the same IOOF Lodge building today near the old Caldwell Train station.

View Larger Map
Click above link for larger view on Google maps. It may take a minute or two or require you hit reload a couple times to get a larger and clearer picture. Seems to be going slow. Those of you receiving email notifications probably won't see the above Google map image. Go to my blog post as that is always a better view anyway.







Related Blog Posts

Seventh & Main Street

I.O.O.F. Oct. 7, 1889 Grand Encampment of Idaho held in Caldwell

Frank's Face

Photo Courtesy of Obvertere's Photostream

Nice to see that Frank's face was cleaned up a bit as was in pretty bad shape when I saw it last.

Click on the photo for a full view on flickr and then click on that again for a nice enlarged version on black background.

Some Other Statue related posts.

(Frank's feet and more information about the statue are at the very bottom of the blog if interested)

No Neckties Allowed #1 - a Frank Steunenberg trademark, reader comments & links of interest

“No Neckties allowed” refers to the well-known habit of my great-grandfather, Governor Frank Steunenberg, of never wearing a tie during his tenure as governor or at any other time that I know of. He was informal, approachable and casual in nature. No ivory towers or layers of security. He grew-up a farm boy of meager means in Iowa and retained his relaxed, boyish nature and dry sense of humor. I think that is why when a question arose in the community, it would often be said,” let’s ask Frank what he thinks”. Reading the first few pages of Big Trouble, we find: “Most of the day, as wind-driven snow hissed on the windowpanes, the governor read and wrote in his study. At four o’clock, he put on his overcoat, a slouch hat and galoshes, but no necktie: he was known throughout the state for his stubborn refusal to throttle himself with those slippery eastern doohickeys. Some said the habit began in the governor’s youth when he was too indigent to afford a tie. In any case, for the rest of his life he’d button the shirt around his neck, leaving the uncovered brass collar to glint like a gold coin at his throat."

The Chicago Tribune, August 29, 1899 "People loved to speculate on this eccentricity. ‘His friends have exhausted all their persuasive powers on him,’ said the Populist James Sovereign. “Newspapers have raked him fore and aft with editorial batteries, theatrical companies have held him up to laughter and ridicule, he has become the basis of standing jokes in bar-room gossip and sewing circles, orators have plead (sic) with him, doctors have prescribed for him and politicians have lied for him, but all of no avail.’ Indeed, a fashionable Washington D.C., hotel had once refused to serve him because he wore no tie, an exclusion that he bore with ‘magnanimous mien.’ A bemused Wall Street remembered him, on one of his excursions East, as ‘a rugged giant who wore a bearskin coat flapping over a collarless shirt.’” --Big Trouble by J. Anthony Lukas

The 1st Idaho Legislature Celebration Of The One Hundredth Anniversary of the Establishment Of The Seat Of Government In The District Of Columbia With the above in mind, I have decided to post an occasional “No Ties Allowed” blog entry for informal remarks, comments, passing on of new links, bits of information and sharing contacts I have had with people of interest. It is informal but hopefully informative. And informal means don't pick on me for grammar or typos. I will still watch it and do (or is that due or doo?) pretty well for an aging dyslexic. In the tradition of Governor Steunenberg, a tradition I uphold, and one that I learned we share with retired Idaho Supreme Court Justice Byron Johnson--no neckties are allowed here. Recent happenings: You may have seen my brief post regarding comments from the great grandson of Albert Horsley (aka Harry Orchard) made to the IPTV website, Assassination: Idaho's Trial of the Century Feedback page. I appreciate Larry Taylor stepping forward as his viewpoint is an important one. I do hope Larry and other Orchard/Horsley descendants will continue to contribute to the discussion as we try to understand the many tragedies of this story that have affected families for generations. Harve Haskell, a Nampa resident and author, is working on a historical novel based on the connection between Governor Steunenberg and Sheriff Harvey Brown of Baker County Oregon. As you may recall, Sheriff Brown was assassinated in an eerily similar plot after he had assisted authorities in Idaho with the Steunenberg assassination investigation. Now I am not a big fan of historical novels. I always felt "historical novel" was an oxymoron as folks tend to confuse fiction with history as it is. We are all guilty from time to time as the lines between fact and fiction can be pretty blurred. I been happy to share information with Harve in the hope that some truth creeps in and perhaps we will see the end result later down the road. No doubt, he will have this amateur historian lining up for a copy of the book and giving my critical review. Gary Heagy shared some interesting discussions with me (see Comments from a reader)and I welcome his input. Gary presents an SDA viewpoint that is always important to our family that still has a few SDA members. As some of you know, Great Grandma Belle was a founding member of the small SDA church in Caldwell. Frank did not covert to SDA but he did not object to Belle’s insistence on raising the children as members of the SDA. My grandfather Julian, the eldest, was rather resistant to the idea but at the urging of his father, and for the sake of peace in the family, he went along and even attended Walla Walla College. Belle raised quite a controversy in the family; particularly with her forgiveness toward Orchard and her belief in his conversion and redemption. We continue to discuss and debate that issue to this day and I am guess we always will. Appreciate your insights Gary and keep them coming. I recently discovered the existence of a proclamation signed by Governor Steunenberg in 1899 creating the Idaho Department of Fish & Game (IDFG) and naming Charles Arbuckle as the first game warden. Through our always helpful chain of Idaho contacts, I was led to Sharon Clark, an historian with the IDFG. She had helped put together an exhibit, "A Century of Hatcheries," that was at the Idaho Historical Museum in 2006. I am hoping to get a copy of the proclamation of the governors as well a more information on the formation of the IDFG in 1899. A future blog post perhaps. Check out the following blog posts if you missed them: Dr. Hans Schantz did a fine post on his blog summarizing Big Trouble: The Steunenberg Assassination. Evan "Revue Guru" Fillby did a nice post on his blog commemorating Albert "A.K." Steunenberg. Recent new links of interest: Albert E. Horsley Diaries Victor & Cripple Creek History 

And of course don't forget to visit our Guest Book over near the top of the blog in the left hand column. Scroll through the entries and then enter your own comment or just say "howdy." If you are kinfolk of mine or of any of the participants in this historical drama, we would love to hear from you. If the Guest Book is too public for you, email me at: john.t.richards@sbcglobal.net More "No Necktie" sessions to come from time to time, usually on the weekends but could show-up anytime since I never have a necktie on anymore. John